Charlie Kaufman e Eva H.D. they have a curious dynamic. Naturally shy and given to speaking softly, exactly like the protagonists of many of his films, the screenwriter and director of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Synecdoche, New York and other classics could make for a difficult interviewee – but not when the poet and screenwriter, with whom Kaufman has had a years-long creative partnership, is sitting right next to him.

Curious and possessing a sardonic humor, which often intersects with Kaufman's typical self-deprecation, Eva keeps the conversation flowing and gives Kaufman a “little push” when he loses his enthusiasm. By luck (or calculation), the poet came to Brazil with the filmmaker to present How to Photograph a Ghost, short film they made together, in 49th São Paulo International Film Festival.

O Omeletof course, didn't miss the opportunity to talk to them both about this unique work, in which Jessie Buckley (The Lost Daughter) lives a ghost walking through the streets of Athens, capital of Greece, and blending into the history of the place. Check out the conversation below, which also touched on Brazilian cinema, the clash between film and film. digital, and much more.

OMELETE: Hello everyone, welcome to Brazil!

KAUFMAN: Thanks.

EVA: (Pointing to the reporter's t-shirt) Are you a fan of Duran Duran!

OMELET: Yes, I am! (Laughter) I watched the film last night (at the Brazilian Cinematheque) - and Charlie, you commented on the size of the crowd gathered to see your film. What is it like to display How to Photograph a Ghost here in Brazil? Were you surprised by how people connected with the film?

KAUFMAN: To be honest, I don't know how people connected with it. We didn't stay to watch, but they seemed to like it. Did they like it?

EVA: Someone wrote a really nice letter to me, saying they had a tattoo of one of my poems and another of a Charlie movie on their arm. It seems like people are enjoying it.

OMELET: Definitely. Everyone I spoke to loved the film.

KAUFMAN: Well, that's comforting. So, I'm happy.

OMELETE: Eva, I was impressed with your Portuguese last night. (The poet and screenwriter gave a speech in Portuguese explaining the film's plot in detail, before the screening at the Cinemateca)

EVA: Oh, really? Great! I was worried it would seem too "computerized."

OMELET: Not at all. I want to ask you, how did you learn that? Was it something you prepared for the occasion?

EVA: I asked the festival advisor beforehand: “How do I say this in Portuguese?” And she told me. I just thought it would be cool, and I'm trying to learn as much Portuguese as possible while we're here. I'm glad you were able to understand what I said!

OMELETE: Yes, I think everyone understood. I also wanted to say something: there is a recent Brazilian film, I don't know if you know it, called The Passion According to GH. It is based on a book by Clarice Lispector.

KAUFMAN: Yes! I mean, I know the book, but I didn't know they made a movie.

OMELETE: Yes, and I think this film does something a little similar to How to Photograph a Ghost. Like, images and poetry combined in an unconventional structure.

KAUFMAN: Oh, really? I want to see this.

OMELETE: At the time, many people compared that film to a visual album or a visual audiobook. I wonder, would you define How to Photograph a Ghost in this way?

KAUFMAN: Hmmm, I don't know. A visual audiobook? I don't know exactly what that means. I think our film is a film, above all.

EVA: But a movie is a visual audiobook, in a way, right? Because it has audio and it has images. It's a good description, and I know you're referring to the narration (omnipresent in How to Photograph a Ghost and The Passion According to GH). Recently I've been listening to radio plays that I find on the internet – because the radio itself doesn't broadcast them anymore, I don't know why – and I fell in love with one that might be from the 60s, a recording of a Greek radio play, based on a famous novel. The format is interesting, because people are no longer used to hearing this kind of thing, with actors acting out something in audio format. I don't know if this answers your question, but I think that perhaps the public has changed its expectations, and that's why there is this attempt to define our film, or this Brazilian film that you mentioned, with these different terms.

OMELETE: I want to delve a little deeper into the creative process of this film, because it seems fascinating to me. How much of a script did you have, besides the narration? Were the scenes very detailed on paper, or was there more improvisation?

EVA: No, it was all there in the script. The street photography we wanted was what I left open-ended – I described vague things, like “a street market”, “two old men arguing”, “an Orthodox priest crossing the road”, whatever, hoping we could capture something similar in Athens, because these are things I saw there all the time. So there was this looser part of the text, which we filled in during filming, but the things that the actors did on camera were all scripted.

OMELETE: Well, the location plays a big role in this film, of course – the city of Athens is key. Eva, where did this decision come from? You were researching Athens, did you live there?

EVA: I lived there. I have family there, I lived there as a child. Most recently, I spent time in Athens during an art residency queerduring which I wrote this script. And it was intentional, too: I was there because I wanted to write about the city, and I wrote about the city because I was there.

OMELETE: I also want to talk about the cast, of course, because Jessie Buckley and Josef Akiki deliver exceptional performances in a very unconventional format. How much did they contribute to the final product? Did their insights change the look of the film much?

KAUFMAN: Yes! I can talk about Jessie's hair, for example. Early on in the process, before we made the film, she said she wanted to wear a blue wig. So she looked for one online and bought it for £10 (about R$ 70), styled it herself before our first day of filming. She came to Athens with the character's look in mind – so, as you can tell, we were very open to their contributions and insights. And actually, I always am, because I think the actor inhabits the character in their own way. Without them, it's words on a page

EVA: Another example is the scene where Jessie looks at a store window and puts makeup on her face, in that EDM style (eletronic dance music), party makeup. In the script, it was only written that the character was preparing for a party, saying that the look had to be a little strange, away from the conventional. When she added the wig and her own interpretation of makeup, I thought it was really cool.

KAUFMAN: And the wig was good because too, because it outlined the chronology of the film. We understand which scenes are before she goes to the rave, and which are after, because she has a wig or without a wig.

OMELETE: Charlie, a few years ago you released another short film, Jackals & Fireflieswhich was shot on a smartphone, not unlike the one I'm using right now. I couldn't find technical information about How to Photograph a Ghost, was it a similar process?

KAUFMAN: No. We film digitally, but on real cameras. (Laughter) And Eva also wrote Jackals & Firefliesor at least it was based on a poem she wrote.

EVA: Right. And your director of photography kind of built the camera.

KAUFMAN: That's right. It's a bit of a cheat to say that we filmed everything on a smartphone, because we also had an exoskeleton around it, with lenses and gadgets that your phone, for example, doesn't have.

OMELETE: Right, but I wonder… there's a lot of talk these days in the film community about film and digital, about the use of smartphones and iPhones in filmmaking. Many directors are very radical about taking sides in this fight, but do you consider yourself a little more malleable?

KAUFMAN: Shooting on film is not something achievable for me. Not available. Christopher Nolan He can say he wants to do it, because he can do it. I can't say the same thing. I mean, I can say it, but it's not going to happen. (Laughter)

EVA: Maybe you should say anyway, put it out into the world.

KAUFMAN: Yes, maybe. On the other hand, I filmed I'm Thinking About Ending It Allwhich was the last feature film I made, digitally – and I'm really happy with how it looks. So, it's not something that strong for me. I filmed (Jackals & Fireflies) on the phone, but not because I wanted to film on the phone… the people who made the phone paid for the film. You know, it's the way we get financing.

OMELET: Right. Of course, your creative partnership has lasted for years. Why do you think your styles work so well together? And are you already thinking about the next thing?

KAUFMAN: I don't know if they work so well together. I mean, I hope so.

OMELET: I think they work!

EVA: Oh, really? How kind of you. I like you.

KAUFMAN: Yes, that's good to hear. I have a feature film that I'm trying to get financing for, and it includes many excerpts from a poetic novel that Eva wrote. A character recites these texts from Eva's book, and I find this interesting because, if it comes to fruition, this film will truly be a synthesis of our tones. When I'm making these short films, I feel like I'm trying to serve Eva's words, but the feature helps to combine them with mine. In I'm Thinking About Ending It Allof course, there's a poem by Eva, and I think it works really well with the things I've written. This next project would be even more of that, and I'm looking forward to bringing it to fruition.

EVA: I think some people who like Charlie's stuff are disappointed with our collaborations, because they're used to the first films he made, which were more comedic or acidic. They're like, 'What is this depressing sh*t?'

OMELETE: Well, I like your most recent films. Really love Synecdoche, New York e Anomalisaand I think this partnership is a good evolution for them.

KAUFMAN: Yeah, I mean, I'm happy with it. I'm happy trying to figure out what to do with the things Eva writes. I think it's good for my soul.

EVA: Now I want to ask you - what is your favorite Duran Duran song?

KAUFMAN: Yeah, let's put the mic on you a little bit.

OMELETTE: Oh, my God, this is so hard. “Hungry Like the Wolf” is a classic, and I love “A View to a Kill” from the James Bond film. Their latest albums are great too!

EVA: I like “Come Undone”.

OMELET: Excellent choice! (Laughter) Well, thank you very much, guys, and congratulations on the film!

EVA: Thank you, Caio.

KAUFMAN: Thank you, bye bye.